Bring On The Cats

Could have just said Kellis wrote an article.

The crappy part is implied.

BracketCat - February 6, 2012 reply

Madder than Hell

The Big 12 should be issuing an apology statement not a fine. As a registered high school basketball official I would not get invited back if I missed such a game changing call.

Yeah, yeah, I hear you, we “blew” a lead. Not in my eyes, ISU is a good b-ball Team and they just made a good come-back with a dominant player in White. We had trouble guarding him all night.

And what about the phantom Charge call on Angel which fouled him out of the game? We got screwed and I don’t normally complain about refs since I am one. This year has just been atrocious as it pertains to officials and their consistency!

Wish I would have listened to Franks comments.

There were a ton of crappy calls that went KSU's way too.

Lots of no-calls on White and Ejim in the paint early in the second half, and I counted at least two travels directly before KSU drained 3 balls that went uncalled. These officials sucked both ways. Quit being a baby, Frank. It’s seeping down to your fan base.

So then you agree

The Big 12 should be issuing an apology statement. Not only for the two calls which I blindly mention since I am KSU fan.

If you notice in my post it doesn’t say that we lost this game because of officiating. Maybe it was inferred though through my “we got screwed” comment. That wasn’t my intent…I clearly state that we lost because ISU is a good b-ball Team.

Only if they issue Fred an apology for all the no-calls on White and Ejim.

ISU’s been on the receiving end of some of the worst calls in the history of sports. Forgive me if I don’t drip with sympathy for KSU when you fall victim to a bad call in a game full of them, on both sides.

The refs called a bad game both ways. KSU just got the last bad call.

Not looking for a sympathy card

and… you are posting on a KSU board.

Not sure about ISU’s history but KSU has been party to some pretty bad calls across all sports.

Two that come to mind are the salute in the Pin-Head Bowl and a clock across the head of Darryl Winston that would have sent KSU to a final four in ’75 or ’76 I believe.

Good for Frank

Glad to see him finally channel some anger at the refs instead of the players. A little carefully directed yelling at the officials could be a good thing, IMHO.

iCatDormRat - February 1, 2012 reply

Arguably our worst bball one

Was against KU at Phog back in ‘04. We went to the line for a 2 shot foul. He missed the first shot, and KU went up the floor and scored a quick 3. The refs quickly realized that this was a dead ball and we had one more free throw, so they gave us the free throw, but they let the 3 ball stand because they claimed that once they put points on the board, they can’t remove them, even if it was a complete failure.

KU by 1 point in OT.

We’ve had some worse football ones, but I don’t want to go into that. We shot ourselves in the foot alot in those days too.

@Beyard

I’m with you. Granted ISU made a stellar comeback but if you have watched any other big 12 games then you’ve seen the atrocious officiating that haunts our conference this year. No one is discrediting ISU for their surge in the 2nd but when it’s a neck and neck game, a missed call can decide the outcome

NDHope - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

I want robot referees!

And welcome to BOTC

Thank you. Glad to be here

and glad to be a wildcat!

NDHope - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

I like how you complain about the officiating and then go after our coach for talking to the refs...

on a KSU board and expect that no one will take offense. There were three critical calls in the last five minutes that had a direct effect on the outcome of the game from our perspective. Angel’s supposed charge was one and both of McGruder’s final two shots were the others. In the case of Rodney we did not go to the line and scored zero points in those two trips while ISU scored five on the other end (huge ramifications). One could also argue that a foul should have been called on ISU during the scrum when Irving got the final rebound on the floor and then they called him out of bounds. Especially considering they called Angel for his fourth foul trying to dive for a rebound on the floor with far less contact. If you read through our thread you would see we have railed on how inconsistent the Big 12 refs have been all season.

Catbacker98 - February 1, 2012 reply

Win or lose bad officiating needs to be addressed, not simply accepted.

Officials are human so mistakes happen, however consistent mistakes without improvement should not be tolerated, and if back channel complaints have not been addressed in a meaningful way (and I am assuming that the athletic department has been bringing issues to the league) then they only have one recourse – complain to the public. If you keep telling the kids your doing all you can and nothing gets better you lose credibility…I’m sure Frank knew the repercutions of his comments and made a concious decision to proceed as one of the only courses of action left to take. Kudos in my opinion since the problem has been persistent and obviously not addressed.

mac attack ict - February 1, 2012 reply

College basketball officiating gets worse every year.

At least you guys aren’t as bad as the Beakers who claim we get calls because the refs are afraid of our crowd.

it would be really awesome if you quit trolling and went back to your own blog

k-stater86 - February 1, 2012 reply

I wouldn't call it trolling.

But only because I am familiar with the poster through my interactions on their blog and his occasional comments on this site.

I think he is just trying to defend his team, and that’s fine with me, but I would also prefer if he would only do that to any KSU fans who tried to complain on their blog and just let us wallow in self-pity for a little bit.

Fair enough.

I don't have a problem with the posts

Just see if from both sides on another team site. There is no doubt we lost the game (not the officials), but that doesn’t mean we can’t complain about the obvious issues with the officiating. We should not accept such failures.

mac attack ict - February 1, 2012 reply

Trolling?

LOL.

I agree the refs sucked. They’ve sucked all year. I don’t agree that they had some bias for ISU, as there were quite a few bad calls that went against ISU in KSU’s favor. They’re just incompetent and KSU got saddled with the final failure.

The Big 12 really needs to evaluate their officiating crews overall

I know its tough, and we can’t expect them to get everything right, but I see the same guys, year after year, making the same mistakes, the same bad calls…and by that I mean being inconsistent with rulings and showing favoritism to top teams. These guys are not very good at their jobs, and just like the rest of us, need to be held accountable for that.

No argument here.

I’ve seen plenty of crappy officiating in this conference for a long time. Hell, it seems like the whole game is struggling in this regard. Look at that WVU/Cuse game last weekend for example.

This I also agree with

Hell, it seems like the whole game is struggling in this regard

Something is not happening right in the evaluation/education of these guys. It seems like an old boys club. I haven’t seen a new official in the Big 12 in several years, and you can always tell those guys because they are more consistent and often get overridden by the older guys

/justsayin

I would bet you see the same problem

in other leagues too.

I feel that there’s going to be plenty of controversy about this stuff come March.

I sure hope so

maybe some heads will roll and things will change

I don't know if we'll see that

but I could see some bad calls in tight tournament games that really get people wound up. Which never hurts.

Collin's Bloody Elbow - February 1, 2012 reply

They just HAPPENED to give ISU three game-changing breaks, that's all.

Move along, nothing to see here, right?

Those two travels prior to KSU 3 balls

didn’t change the course of the game at all, did they?

Bad calls happened all night, both ways. There’s a problem with officiating today and its not about bias, its about competency.

Bring back John Erickson as director of Basketball.

He’ll get those refs in order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E.Erickson(Wisconsin_politician)

He goes to my church. Great guy.

margibso - February 1, 2012 reply

After watching last night's game, I've got some of my own conclusions.

First off – the reason why we lost the game? Rod’s shots weren’t falling. He’s our go-to guy and had a bad shooting night (5-16). If he makes half the shots he missed that he usually makes, the game was ours. It happens though, can’t put any blame on Rod.

But do you know who has been making shots lately? Irving. Give him more minutes. Give him more opportunities. Give him some of Will’s minutes. I think Irving could be a huge boost in these huge scoring droughts we have. I’ll take one less charge taken from Will in lieu of Irving taking (and making) more shots. Am I the only one who wants to see Irving play for 35 minutes and Will play for 15-20?

Vic…. I know you’re all heart and passion, but there’s a reason Rudy only played 2 plays in his career…. 10 boards? You had better put up those numbers playing 20 goddamn minutes.

Royce White – you’re a beast, but my god you make Thomas Gipson look like John Stockton at the free throw line…. I’m not sure why we didn’t just throw a bunch of guys at him and foul him hard (so that he wasn’t able to get an and 1 situation, not take him out of the game hard) when he had his way to the basket. He got to the basket way too easily and I’m pretty sure having Thomas Gipson and Adrian Diaz (and Vic….) guard him from 25 feet out wasn’t the best solution. That falls on the coaches.

mystman995 - February 1, 2012 reply

Don't forget, Irving was rather poor against OU

4 fouls, 1/5 FG, no FTs, 5 TOs, 3 rebounds, 2 steals. But I’d take him over Will at this point. Hell, I’d take Nick Russell over will.

The Cats didn’t lose because Rod had an off night, they lost because this team is completely incapable of holding a lead. They’ve blown big leads against Baylor, UT, OSU, and ISU, and going back farther, against UTEP as well. I don’t care that they’ve won three of those games, the fact that they keep letting their opponents back into the game means something is wrong.

I don’t know if Jones and Williams are still hurt or not, but I would like to see them play.

With the Dog Lovers and TTs on the way (not that home court matters a damned bit right now, but it might), this team better get to 6-5.

Looking ahead, with the Dog Lovers, TTs, OSU, ISU, KU at home, I think, if the Cats can actually play worth a fuck with a lead (don’t count on it, but it is possible), this group might be able to make the tournament. They MUST NOT LOSE AT HOME, and they need to take one on the road (at UT and at A&M are the only real shots). Winning a game in the conference tournament would be helpful too.

It’s one thing to lose games, but it quite another to keep blowing them. I don’t know what the answer is, but whatever they’re trying clearly isn’t working. Next season gives me no reason for hope because I’m not convinced any improvement we’ll see from Angel will offset the loss of Jamar.

I don't know how you can say this:

I’m not convinced any improvement we’ll see from Angel will offset the loss of Jamar.

Yes, because Jamar has been such a difference maker for our team this year.

I know eternal pessimism is your thing, but I really don’t see any reason to not expect this team to be much better next year.

I agree - I don't get the pessimism about Angel.

mystman995 - February 1, 2012 reply

I am actually very optimistic

about Angel. And Diaz and Gipson. These guys are already showing much promise as freshman, growing, getting better. The future looks bright

Diaz showed

such nice soft hands around the basket last night. Nice contrast to Jamar and JO. I love a lot of the things that Jamar and JO do but their lack of touch close to the rim is amazing…

iCatDormRat - February 1, 2012 reply

I wonder if Diaz will start over JO next year.

Or perhaps when is more appropriate than if.

Gip should be really good too. I was likely pessimistic about next year because however I slice it, Angel, Gip, and Diaz are better than Jamar and Victor.

I can't think of a guard Martin and his staff have had that have improved that much between freshman and sophomore years

Nick, Martavious, Rodney (who’s likely the best candidate but he’s not a PG), Will, even Jake, and I can’t even remember anyone else all hit a wall their sophomore year.

Meanwhile Jamar, for all his inconsistency, is still second on the team in points at 10.5 (but just barely ahead of Mr. Slump at 10.0), leads the team in rebounds at 6.4, and is a solid defender (but still with 3.2 fouls).

OK, that is fair.

But I still think Angel has showed quite a lot this season, and I expect this team to be much better next year. We only lose Jamar, and I’m still not convinced that will be that big of a loss, compared to losing Pullen or Clemente. (not that you were saying it was)

I think the Cats with Rodney as the senior leader will be much better. I could be way wrong in that regard, though, because I have always liked McGruder and I probably view with too much favorable bias.

Oh yeah, and Gipson.

Forgot to mention that Gipson will have a whole year under his belt of Big 12 experience.

Certainly. I was thinking PG is the problem, not the bigs, but I think we can expect better play out of the bigs next year.

Jamar has been solid this year.

Not great. Not bad. He’s at least been more consistent.

But yeah, Angel is going to be a great one. We should definitely be better next year.

I don’t see how Frank could run off any of this class. Gip, Diaz, and Angel are all bought in. They’re all talented players. They are a great building block. Now hopefully we can inject some guard play with our 2013 class and Jeremy Jones learning to play defense. It will still be desperately needed.

yeahboozin - February 1, 2012 reply

I didn't mean to degrade Jamar's contributions.

I just don’t see why losing him makes someone think our team will be worse next year.

Itchy n Scratchy - February 1, 2012 reply

I wasn't able to see the OU game

but of the games I’ve seen, Irving has and can be very effective with his dribble penetration and is able to create his own shots. Will does not have this ablitily.

mystman995 - February 1, 2012 reply

I couldn't see the OU game or the ISU game and was on Wyatt vision.

Wyatt kept saying that Irving needed to quit trying to go so far down and stop and pop. Sounded like Frank was on him for not trying to go further in and draw fouls and in the process, got him out of doing against OU what he was doing well vs. Tech.

ArkieCat - February 1, 2012 reply

A few responses:

Agreed – if Rod plays more like he has this season, we win the game. But there were a lot of factors that contributed to the loss.

Among them was Irving’s play in the second half. He had untimely turnovers and played pretty poor defense for most of the final 20 after having played really well in the first half.

I won’t disagree he should be playing more and Will playing less. We’re over halfway through the conference season and it’s officially time to stop expecting Will to break out of a “slump”. No reason he should be playing 30+ minutes/game.

I don’t want Vic playing 20+ minutes either, but I do think he receives unwarranted criticism. He was no worse last night than some other guys. He was asked to guard someone twice his size. He played good help defense. He rebounded well besides the final play (which was big, I know). I would also love to see JO and Diaz be consistently good and play much more than Vic. But I think he is everyone’s favorite goat and just don’t see exactly why.

yeahboozin - February 1, 2012 reply

It's not that VO's a goat, it's that he's the canary in the coal mine.

You can’t be a good team with VO playing 20 minutes. If he’s playing that many minutes, your team has serious problems. It’s not VO’s fault.

K-State Sports has their own

official recruiting central. I would suggest using it over Rivals or ESPN.

Likewise, I would point your attention to the Big 12’s page, which already includes our new eastern bretheren.

This looks to be a really solid class. All those grey shirts are coming, including several that we thought we could have used last year…that makes me pretty happy for the future.
And for all the Sean Snyder haters, that LB kid from Texas that he got to sign was an academic all-state scholar and NHS member…so at least he is trying to help the APR

Collin's Bloody Elbow - February 1, 2012 reply

nice catch on the conf page

GTcat - February 1, 2012 reply

The last play...

So, I’ve browsed through the game thread and here and haven’t seen anything regarding this. I know its the unorthodox way to go, but I and everyone else I was with was adamant that we should have fouled White as soon as he touched the ball on their final play.

Before everyone rails on this idea, I know we were tied and this is not conventional wisdom. But, seriously…we’d done NOTHING to stop him or pretty much anyone else the last 8 minutes of the game. No foregone conclusion that they score, but the way we’d played on defense…I’m taking my chances with a 51% shooter at the line. Foul with 20 seconds left, let him make 1 of 2. You’ve got 20 seconds and a timeout. I know there are risks with this (see the prior missed FT that we didn’t get the rebound), but IMHO, that was a calculated risk worth taking. Fire away.

All that aside, we had no business blowing a 14 point lead and what that means for the team now and going forward, but that’s been discussed plenty on the game thread.

gw1754 - February 1, 2012 reply

I agree whole-heartedly.

Furthermore, I’m getting really pissed off at the twitterverse (JakeGuti, Sam Mellinger, other Kansas City based “experts”) that think to even suggest that we foul is ludicrous.

The way you described the last play is exactly what I think we should have done.

Glad I’m not alone because I’ve been telling everyone I can get to listen, and they all look at me like I’m crazy. Which has been frustrating, to say the least.

dcchiefcat - February 1, 2012 reply

Probably discussed elsewhere but

why no timeout called after the made FT w/ 1.8 sec left? We had one left right? Probably wouldn’t have mattered. Agree that it would have been best to send White to the line and take your chances there.

iCatDormRat - February 1, 2012 reply

There is no set play for 1.8 seconds.

There is barely time to throw it in and heave a 3 from anywhere on the court.

Catbacker98 - February 1, 2012 reply

Laettner's Duke/UK shot didn't have much more time than that on the clock.

I think it was 2.1.

The only thing that works is a throw in to around half court with a turn around shot for 3.

1.8 is cutting that to very close. But I remember the shot you are referring to and I can’t remember if Coach K called a TO prior to the inbound.

Catbacker98 - February 1, 2012 reply

He did.

And then Pitino didn’t guard the inbounds passer.

Collin's Bloody Elbow - February 1, 2012 reply

I don't think we should have fouled ...

But we shouldn’t have been pressuring him from outside the 3-pt line (iirc).

And once he started his penetration, we damn sure shouldn’t have been leaving him in a one-on-one situation. You have to make someone else take the shot.

Ultimately, we ended up with one man (McGruder) guarding White in isolation at about 12 feet from the basket. And when Diaz wasn’t there for help (because he’s a freshman and didn’t fully realize the situation), that’s all she wrote.

imo, we should not have pressured White out past the 3-pt line. And when he made his move, we should have double-teamed him and made him fine someone else to take the shot. And if we could have helped over and closed out on that guy, so much the better.

Itchy n Scratchy - February 1, 2012 reply

I agree with this.

I was shocked to see White get that much pressure that far out. I can understand being mad at Frank for not calling a double on White in the post, but I don’t understand the call to foul..

If the situation was flipped and you guys had Shaq in his prime on your roster, I still don’t foul him in a tie game.

CanAzn - February 1, 2012 reply

I would, in that situation, every time

especially with 20 seconds remaining. When you are a poor free throw shooter, you are more likely to miss those big shots, thus a possible net loss of only 1 point, maybe none. Again, you would have to hope to get the board, move up court and call a time out, but I have seen it done more times than not.

Itchy n Scratchy - February 1, 2012 reply

To double-back on myself ...

I do think there was one compelling argument to be made in favor of fouling: KSU had a pretty small chance of winning the game in OT (though that is pure speculation and plays to my pessimistic nature).

Since the scenario of not fouling pretty much demanded a best-case scenario of going to OT, I could go with that. Along with the 25% chance that White misses both, I’m probably changing my mind.

But it’s a little too easy to project the “KSU scores in response” scenario … I would have given us about a 20% chance at best to score. We sure as hell weren’t going to get any free throws and we saw almost no good shots the last 10 minutes of the game.

A counter to that would be that if KSU fouled with 15 secs left (or more), and White made at least one FT, KSU could come down and get a shot as soon as possible. And if it was missed, KSU could foul and get one more small chance at saving the game even after that.

This is another thing I probably didn't get across...

A counter to that would be that if KSU fouled with 15 secs left (or more), and White made at least one FT, KSU could come down and get a shot as soon as possible. And if it was missed, KSU could foul and get one more small chance at saving the game even after that.

We foul with 20 seconds or so left, and if 1) White makes one and then misses the second, but they get a rebound or 2) he makes both, or 3) he misses both, but ISU gets a rebound…in all of those scenarios, the worst case is we get the ball down by three with time left (at least 10 seconds) and a timeout. I can see both sides of the argument, but I still think it was a calculated risk worth taking.

gw1754 - February 1, 2012 reply

I'm still mad

Thought I’d post this to get everyone’s blood pumping again.

hmmm, no link I'll try again

still no link

guess I’m not smart enough to use this…

Trying to post a link to:

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=8d46fe2fa56d812a&resid=8D46FE2FA56D812A!342&parid=root

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=8d46fe2fa56d812a&sc=photos&id=8D46FE2FA56D812A!342

dumb ass

last try, then someone can send me an instruction manual

don't beat yourself up, and welcome!

GTcat - February 1, 2012 reply

Didn't realize we had three playing with the flu last night....not an excuse but possibley a contibuting factor

In addition to Samuels, both Angel Rodriguez and Jordan Henriquez were bothered by illnesses. That left Victor Ojeleye to play 21 minutes and Adrian Diaz 15, with both on the floor at the end. Ojeleye responded with a game-high 10 rebounds.

"We just had the flu bug hit our team,’’ Martin said. "It started with Gipson. … Now, we had three guys up all night, leaving trash cans full of stuff in their hotel rooms, but what are you going to do, make excuses?’’

AmmoCat - February 1, 2012 reply

This

The Indianapolis Colts fired Ron Prince.

makes me laugh a little

Oh Joy...

The nations top WR prospect and overall top recruit committed to Mizzou…cue the incessant and non-stop “S-E-C” chant…*eye roll

Kohawk84 - February 1, 2012 via iPhone app reply

I'd rather he go there than ou or texas

EMAW 4 Ever (iphone) - February 1, 2012 via iPhone app reply

Agreed

rivals rankings

You know Ron Prince used to get consistently higher recruiting ranking than Bill Snyder. Which has lead me to believe that school recruiting rankings (especially between 25 and 60) don’t mean much.

margibso - February 1, 2012 reply

the rankings mean nothing at all

For every 5 star that becomes an AA there is 2 3 star recruits that do the same and 2 5 stars that di nothing at all.

EMAW 4 Ever (iphone) - February 1, 2012 via iPhone app reply

I wouldn't say they mean nothing at all.

Posts like the one I linked in the Slate yesterday show pretty clearly that as your class ranking increases, your likelihood of winning more games increases, too. Does that mean every school that signs highly ranked recruiting classes is going to win a minimum of 10 games? No, see Ohio State, Florida and Texas this year as examples. But overall, you’re more likely to win more often if you sign more highly ranked recruits.

TB - February 1, 2012 reply

I don't contend that the top rated classes which Florida, Texas, and Ohio State get

don’t give them a huge advantage. What I’m saying is that if one coach is consistently pulling in classes rated in the high twenties, low thirties, and another is pulling in classes rated in the forties. You don’t really know which one is doing better. It becomes too much hair splitting and guesswork in that range. And yeas Ron Prince is the first coach in this example and Bill Snyder the second.

margibso - February 1, 2012 reply

You should definitely read that article TB linked in the Slate yesterday,

Not only do they show that you normally win more games with higher ranked recruits, but they show that 5 stars have a higher percentage of success.

For example (I don’t remember the actual numbers, just paraphrasing from memory), 5 stars account for about 10% of the total number of recruits but account for about 80% of the All Americans. 3 stars and below account for about 80% of total recruits but only like 20% of All Americans.

Obviously, those numbers aren’t completely accurate, but that’s the basic gist of them, showing that 5 stars have about a 1 in 27 chance of becoming AAs but 3 stars and below have about a 1 in 1,217 chance of becoming AAs.

That doesn’t mean you can’t win with only 3 star recruits. but it does mean that it is statistically more unlikely that you will win.

^This^

Agree on all fronts.

One thing to add though is AA’s don’t mean much either. See David Garrett