A couple of weeks back, I got bored and proposed a roundtable discussion on the Big 12 Conference members and the existing conference alignment. The BOTC editorial staff promptly chimed in with their thoughts, and I thought the discussion was pretty through provoking.
Since the offseason is a time for theoretical discussions, I thought this would be a fun topic to tackle. Go ahead and give us your thoughts in the comments section.
Here are the questions:
1. If you could add a school to the conference, who would it be and why?
2. Conversely, if you add one, you have to drop one. Who would it be and why?
3. If you ruled the world, how would you align the Big 12? North/South? East/West? Make two divisions with fun names?

TB:
First, a preamble (you're shocked, I know). I'm limiting my responses to examining the possibility that Missouri and Colorado leave. Iowa State isn't going anywhere, so I'm going to look at the more realistic scenarios involving Mizzou jumping to the Big 10/11 and Colorado jumping to the Pac-10. I also think this is a worthy issue to look at, because I do think it is entirely possible that the Big 10/11 and the Pac-10 will look to expand in the next few years, and that the two Big 12 schools mentioned would be on the short list. I happen to think that Colorado is more likely to leave than Missouri, as they don't really leave anything behind here. Yeah, they have a rivalry with Nebraska, but it's not a rivalry either side enjoys, and I get the feeling both schools would be thoroughly happy if the other disappeared. Thus, Colorado to the Pac-10 = problem solved for both.
Missouri is a different story. True, the Big 10/11 offers the heightened academic profile that Missouri craves, but would they turn their back on the Border War, especially at a time when it's actually turning into a pretty good rivalry? They are a longtime member of the Big 6/7/8/12 and would leave a lot of history behind by bolting. Not saying they won't, just noting that it's a consideration.
With that as a backdrop, on to the questions.
1. I'll do a ranking here of the order of schools I would want were anyone to leave the conference.
Memphis: Assuming the Tigers bring in a good coach, they have a solid basketball program that would be a good addition to the Big 12. They play in an NBA arena that is probably bigger than every Big 12 arena, save perhaps Texas (sorry, too lazy to look it up right now). In football, they're not great, but they're not bad. Under current coach Tommy West, Memphis has been to five bowls, winning two of them. Going to bowl games when you play in Conference USA isn't exactly a guarantee, either, as the conference doesn't have a whole lot of tie-ins. I don't know anything about Memphis' other sports, so I can't comment on how they'd compare to Big 12 programs.
Geographically, it's not a bad fit. Tennessee borders Missouri (barely), although if we are assuming that Mizzou is one of the schools we lose, then that becomes a moot argument. Memphis certainly wouldn't stretch the conference any farther to the east than it's already stretched to the south. As for other stuff, Memphis has an enrollment of 20,000+, and FedEx is a major sponsor of the school and might be an attractive sponsor for the Big 12 Conference (replace Phillips 66 and Whataburger, anyone?).
Finally, Memphis would be all-but-certain to bolt for the Big 12 if we made them an offer. I was actually discussing just last night with someone how badly Houston got screwed when the Southwest Conference fell apart and UH didn't get an invite to the Big 12. The financial difference between being in C-USA and being in the Big 12 cannot be ignored, and that issue alone would be enough for Memphis to bolt.
Tulsa: Similar arguments to Memphis, except Tulsa is better at football than Memphis is and quite a bit worse at basketball. They are a perfect geographic fit, although they don't bring in a new TV market like Memphis would. That said, I didn't bring up the TV issue above because I don't really think we need to go chasing TV sets if we lose Colorado or Missouri. Losing those schools would mean we lose Denver and St. Louis, with Denver being the bigger blow. That said, I'm curious how important the Denver market is to the Big 12, given that they've never made a play to host either the conference football or basketball championships, despite having more-than-adequate facilities to do so.
Arkansas: Probably not worth discussing, because I'm reasonably sure they wouldn't leave the SEC for the Big 12, unless the folks at Texas and Texas A&M could convince them to do so. In a tug-of-war between money and old conference rivalries that can be used as an excuse for showy nonconference games, I'm guessing money will win out.
However, if there was a shot, I'd really want the Big 12 to do whatever it could to bring the Razorbacks in. Solid tradition in both football and basketball, decent TV market (Little Rock), old rivalries, makes geographic sense. Definitely worth looking into, if for no other reason than it just might piss off Texas.
Colorado State: With apologies to JSchwarz, I would not be enthused about bringing in the Rams. A solid football run under Sonny Lubick belies the fact that CSU has been terrible for most of its football history (471-510-33 all-time record, and yes I realize our all-time record is worse). Even worse, they play in a stadium that is smaller than some high school stadiums in Texas. In basketball, the Rams add nothing, even if we compare them to Colorado, which is saying something. Further, they don't bring in a new TV market, as CU probably has a better hold on Denver and Fort Collins by itself is not a lucrative market.
Finally, I will note that I would also consider Texas Christian and Houston, with the caveat that I would only advocate adding them to the conference if the school we lost was Baylor. Petty as it may sound, I don't want this conference to become more Tex-centric than it already is, and other than TCU's football program, I don't think either school brings in anything that Memphis or Tulsa doesn't.
2. I already discussed who is most likely to drop out. I'm sure a lot of people would advocate dropping Iowa State, but I wouldn't. My first choice would be Baylor. It's not that I hate Baylor, or their fans, or anything (well, other than their town). They're just not a good fit in this conference. They got in because one of their alums was the governor of Texas at the time this conference was formed, which has always kind of stuck in my craw. Sorry, Bears, but if the decision was up to me, you'd be in the Mountain West.
3. I'm a little suspicious of divisional alignments, as they create the possibility of imbalance. I guess doing away with divisions and doing Big 10/11-style scheduling can create imbalance, too, if a school misses certain powerhouse schools. Overall, I'm not sure there is a way to do things that won't create at least some controversy.
I guess if I had to choose, I'd stick with what we have. In the event we lost a North school (i.e., Colorado or Missouri), the replacement would be placed in the North. If I had my way and we lost Baylor, the replacement would go in the South. Sorry, I'm not very innovative today.
BracketCat:
1. You guys seem to have the serious options covered, so I'll just spell out a personal fantasy instead:
We should forcibly annex Notre Dame. I would greatly enjoy beating those sorry, overrated SOBs every season. I think the correct word for it is "euphoria." Plus, we would instantly jump at least two other conferences on ESPN's list of Facebook friends. It's a win-win scenario!
2. Baylor's gonna be the popular option here, so I'll again head in another direction and say Oklahoma State. They're going to price us out of any athletics at the rate they're going. Before you know it, you'll have to mortgage your child's college education fund just to afford season tickets, thanks to Tbooneflation. In fact, I vote we just give Stillwater back to the Native Americans and turn the athletic village into the pimpest casino east of Vegas. $600 showerheads in the hotel rooms? I'm down!
3. Texas vs. everyone else. I don't care that it would be unbalanced. The Texas schools think they're such hot shit - they probably think the four of them could take on the eight of us with ease and would jump on the chance to prove it. Plus, it would pretty much give K-State a guaranteed win in football every year. Ba-zing!
EMAW:
3. Let me preface this response by stating my feelings of divisions as a whole. First, there is no secret way to divide up a conference. The way that teams can go from good to bad in various sports makes it difficult to divide based on success in athletics. With that said, it's no secret that Oklahoma and Texas rule the roost when it comes to athletic funding and tradition. I think it would be good for the conference to "integrate" the original Big 8 schools with the Texas schools. Therefore, a division based on East/West would be the best way to bring the conference together. Put Colorado,Tech, K-State, OU, A&M and Nebraska in the West and KU, Iowa State, Mizzou, Texas, OSU, and A&M in the East. Yes, this split's up several rivalries, but that comes with the cost of progress. I also think the names of the divisions shouldn't be just East/West or North/South. I've tried to think of cool names for the divisions, but I'm lacking in the creativity department today.
Panjandrum:
I'm late to my own party, so I'll try to make this good. I'm going to combine the thoughtfulness of TB and EMAW, but the wit of BracketCat. So, I'll do both a serious answer and a humorous answer.
1. Serious Answer: My choice for a school to add is Memphis, and I'd agree that Tulsa would be a solid grab. However, I'm going to throw another name in for consideration: New Mexico.
New Mexico accomplishes a few different things. One, it's a whole new state of television sets. Granted, there aren't that many TV's in New Mexico, but it's something. Also, New Mexico has a really decent basketball program, and their football program has been competitive in the last few years as well. They're a state school, so they fit the profile. However, and this is a big 'however', you'd have to realign the division because there's no way in Hell you could make them a part of the North division. But, in my universe, there would be no North and South. I have no desire to see this conference gravitate around the state of Texas, and in my opinion, it should be split up appropriately.
Joke Answer: Creighton, but they would take Nebraska basketball's place. This way, the entire state of Nebraska can get what they always wanted...their favorite bandwagon football team, and their favorite bandwagon basketball team.
2. I'm with TB. I'd boot Baylor. It's kind of weird to have a private religious institution in a super-conference. Now, I know that you shouldn't throw stones when you live in a glass house, and Baylor does excel in women's athletics and non-revenue sports, but from a sheer 'fit' perspective, Baylor's just never made sense. They're more in line with the Mountain West or C-USA.
Joke Answer: Iowa State. Why? Ask yourself one question. If Canada disappeared tomorrow, would you care?
Now, replace "Canada" with "Iowa State" and let me know if that answer changes.
3. Serious Answer: Splitting the conference into "East" and "West" or "Red" and "White" (or some other goofy color scheme) makes sense. Right now, the conference is too Texas centric, and when all of the Texas schools play each other, it absolutely dominates the TV revenue for everyone else. It would be good to split the teams up so the Longhorns, Aggies, Sooners, etc. spread the wealth amongst the other teams. If it were my universe, I'd do it like this:
Division A:
Texas
Texas A&M
Kansas
Kansas State
Missouri
Iowa State
Division B:
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Nebraska
Colorado
Texas Tech
Baylor
If you go with this setup, from a football standpoint, you get to keep Texas' rivalry with A&M, KU/KSU/MU stay in the same division, and Iowa State becomes the patsy.
Oklahoma keeps the Bedlam game on the schedule, and they get to renew their rivalry with the Huskers. Nebraska and Colorado keep their game, and Texas Tech can hopefully step out of the shadow of UT and A&M.
From this standpoint, I think things balance out a little more:
Personally, I like this much better than the current format. Also, if a team were to leave, it would be easier to replace them because the conference is more spread out geographically, so no new team sticks out like a sore thumb.
Joke Answer: I don't have one. The current format (and resulting tiebreakers, TV imbalance, and various other absurdities) is enough of a joke as is.
0 recs | 27 comments
One factual correction to my post...
…concerns the reason Baylor is in the Big 12. It was, in fact, lieutenant governor Bob Bullock, a Baylor grad (lots of Bs there), who was mostly behind Baylor’s inclusion in the Big 12. Ann Richards, the governor of Texas at the time, and a Baylor grad herself, did not play a prominent role in the Bears’ inclusion. I sincerely apologize for this error and any harm it may have caused.
TB - April 24, 2009
The two Baylor fans in existence accept your apology.
Panjandrum - April 24, 2009
Bob Bullock went to Texas Tech University
He went to Baylor for Law School
Texas Wahoo - April 24, 2009
A few things TB
Just to pick on you a little, but both my points kind of go against eachother so whatever – I guess I’m just picking apart your logic….
1. If MIssouri leaves for the Big10//11, we would lose the St. Louis market. The Memphis market would help make up for that, but rather than swap I’d think it’d be better for tradition and whatnot.
2.Then you say MU would lose the Border War with KU. Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m not), but doesn’t MU already have a rivalry with a team from another conference? A MIssouri switch-a-roo wouldn’t really change much anyway since MU already plays KU and Illinois once a year in each sport.
3. I’m not sure how adding another team would help out the North. There are no schools big enough north of Kansas and Nebraska that would really help the conference and more importantly the North. Maybe adding Iowa makes sense if Colorado leaves (and the Big 10/11 would remain the Big 10) to fill the North void.
I don’t like any scenario of dropping Baylor in favor of Arkansas or TCU. Football is the #1 sport and we can kiss any sort of gap-bridging good bye. The south would get even richer.
That being said, Iowa and Arkansas would never leave their conferences. And I wouldn’t even bother asking them.
4. With any sort of divisional realignment, we would have to get creative with the names. North and South wouldn’t work. A/B is too boring. I suggest coming up with something new. Like an Optimus Prime division vs. a Beattles Anthology divison. Obviously I would not be put in charge with that one….
mystman995 - April 24, 2009
Regarding Mizzou...
…and any of the RMNers who read this can feel free to correct me, but I get the feeling Mizzou’s rivalry with KU is about 1,000 times more intense than their rivalry with Illinois. Maybe for Tiger grads in St. Louis this isn’t true, but my basis of knowledge is Kansas City, and the Tiger fans there hate KU and, while they don’t like losing to Illinois, don’t really care that much. So yes, MU would pick up a rivalry game by moving to the Big 10/11, but I don’t think they’d feel like it was an adequate replacement. Of course, as I mentioned, if you have academic cachet and more money on one side, and a rivalry on the other, I’m guessing the academics and money may be a stronger pull.
TB - April 24, 2009
I'm not saying that one rivalry is better than one another.
But they wouldn’t lose any. As long as they schedule each other every year, I don’t see this one fading out like the NU/OU.
mystman995 - April 24, 2009
Losing to Illinois is an inconvenience.
Losing to Kansas is catastrophic.
RPT - April 24, 2009
As a RMNer who grew up in St. Louis and lives in Kansas City
you are correct. It’s much more intense in STL than KC, but it’s really just for natives. Everyone who went to school at Mizzou hates Kansas. Only people who are Mizzou fans in St. Louis hate Illinois. And, most of us root for Illinois when we’re not playing them.
Their fans are annoying, but they’re not Jayhawks.
Andy--01 - April 24, 2009
So, another question for the RMNers...
…how likely do you think it is that Mizzou bolts for the Big 10/11? Would Mizzou initiate that kind of contact on its own? If the Big 10 offered, would MU jump at the chance or have to think it over carefully?
TB - April 24, 2009
This is me personally...
But I don’t think this is as legitimate as every makes it out to be, for two primary reasons:
- Making the Border War a non-conference event is horrible, horrible idea.
- Losing recruiting and TV ties to the state of Texas could be crippling.
RPT - April 24, 2009
Devil's advocate...
1) Having access to the Big Ten media exposure may overcome the loss of ties to Texas.
2) MU has a wide variety of sports, and they would most likely get better in non-revenue sports given the amount of participation and interest in the Big Ten
3) Academically, it would probably benefit Missouri to be a part of the Big Ten as opposed to the Big 12
I’m not saying that I want you guys to leave, but you know, I could see the benefits.
Panjandrum - April 24, 2009
the media exposure of the Big Televen
wouldn’t bring them more Texas HS recruits, though.
They’d be able to recruit the plodding buffaloes that pass as football recruits in Big Televen country, though.
I think Arkansas would have agreed to jump to the Big 12 if we hadn’t set up the non-conference football series between A&M and Arkansas starting this year, simply because they need the exposure to Texas recruits to survive. With a guaranteed game in the Metroplex every year now, they don’t need to leave the SEC.
To go completely out of the box, if we drop Baylor or Iowa State (they both suck equally), I’d like to add either Army or Navy. I like both of those schools, it wouldn’t add or take anything away from a competitive standpoint, and I think the media would LOVE having either of those schools in a BCS conference, so it would bring more television coverage.
Beergut - April 24, 2009
Based on the idea of the 4-team core...here is my rankings for strength of relationship to the Big 12 conference:
First to go: Baylor
Next in line: Colorado, Iowa State
Then: K-State, Ok-State, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
The keystone of the Texas rivalries: Texas (not sure where this fits other than linked with OU)
Core: Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Kansas
MadCat - April 24, 2009
you must be joking
A&M and texas are the untouchables in this conference; why? Television sets. They are the most desirable programs to have in the conference, because they bring the most television sets.
Kansas, Kansas State, and Nebraska would all be lost before they’d give up A&M or texas.
Beergut - April 24, 2009
And yet...
…the Big 8 thrived for years without them, and they couldn’t keep their own conference afloat.
TB - April 24, 2009
actually
A&M and texas carried the SWC in its last years.
They chose to leave because they were tired of propping up small school privates like TCU, SMU, Baylor, etc.
The Big 8 had no television sets, which is why they needed the Texas schools to form the Big 12. If A&M had gone to the SEc and texas to the Pac-10, the Big 8 would have died a lonely death.
Beergut - April 24, 2009
I don't think the OU v. Nebraska rivalry would have let the Big 8 die.
Just my opinion though.
MadCat - April 24, 2009
Be that as it may...
…Texas and Texas A&M are not sacred cows in this conference. If the Big 8 decided to cut Texas A&M loose right now, where would they go? You need the Big 12 a lot more than it needs the TV sets A&M individually brings to the conference, and you needed the Big 8 just as badly as it needed you back in 1995.
And do we really need to go over the whole TV sets thing again? Yes, UT and TAMU bring in DFW and Houston (although I would venture that OU has at least a decent following in DFW). But the Big 8 would have survived just fine with St. Louis, Kansas City, Denver, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Omaha (and all the t-shirt Husker fans nationwide) and Des Moines.
TB - April 24, 2009
Sorry, I never fully explained the basis for my reasoning...
This is based on published traditional rivalries as found on wikipedia. OU, Nebraska, and Missouri each have 4; Kansas and Texas each have three (I considered the longest series KU v. Nebraska as a rivalry as well as Nebraska vs. Oklahoma). However, Texas only shares a rivalry with one of the core schools…Oklahoma. Texas A&M has the Battle of the Brazos and the game with Texas (I don’t recall what it is called).
This wasn’t based on the conference’s dependence on a school, but more of a school’s dependence on the other members of the conference.
MadCat - April 24, 2009
1.) Here are my candidates: Louisville, Memphis, Houston, North Texas, New Mexico. I would like to drop Baylor in favor of either of the Texas schools. Houston and UNT have enrollments of roughly double that of Louisville or Memphis…I don’t know how that might translate into number of fans, but maybe there’s some correlation. The non-Texas schools would expand the boundaries of the Big 12 into other states.
2.) Baylor, Colorado…Texas. Baylor and Colorado aren’t the greatest fit for the Big 12. Texas could probably go independent if they really wanted to do so.
3.) Okay…here we go: (sports commentators will have trouble with this…but the stats guys should be okay)
4 divisions, 3 year rotation….
South-West division: OU, Texas, Texas Tech
South-East division: OSU, Baylor, Texas A&M
North-West division: CU, K-State, Nebraska
North-East division: Mizzou, ukans, Iowa State
Year one:
(North) CU, K-State, Nebraska, Mizzou, ukans, Iowa State
(South) OU, Texas, Texas Tech, OSU, Baylor, Texas A&M
Year two:
(East) OSU, Baylor, Texas A&M, Mizzou, ukans, Iowa State
(West) OU, Texas, Texas Tech, CU, K-State, Nebraska
Year three:
(NWSE) CU, K-State, Nebraska, OSU, Baylor, Texas A&M
(NESW) OU, Texas, Texas Tech, Mizzou, ukans, Iowa State
I suppose if you want to separate OU from Texas, you could swap out one of them. Someone else can come up with how the scheduling works out…but it would at least switch up the teams that play each other year after year (with the exception of the two in your subdivision).
MadCat - April 24, 2009
Now...
…there’s an idea I haven’t seen yet.
Since you brought up Houston, I’ll give you my thoughts on the Coogs. Good mid-major football program, mediocre basketball program compared to its potential. The football stadium is tiny; I don’t think it even holds 30,000 fans. For most games, it’s not even half full, either. It’s a school that could probably flourish with the Big 12’s money and name-recognition, considering that it’s in the middle of a recruiting hotbed for both major sports.
TB - April 24, 2009
lousy prospect
there is a reason they weren’t brought along to the Big 12.
Houston is a commuter school with little to no fanbase. Their facilities are mediocre, and their support is non-existent. The market looks promising, but there are more Aggies in Houston than Coog fans. The Cougars won’t even carry their own television market.
In thoery in makes sense, in reality, it is a horrible idea.
Beergut - April 24, 2009
Would North Texas be the same?
I realize they aren’t up to the level of competition as the Big 12, but wasn’t sure if their alums followed sports much.
MadCat - April 24, 2009
I don't think Missouri would bolt for another athletic conference...
They are a member of what I consider to be the 4-team core of the conference: Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Kansas. The Texas schools are connected to the core via Texas – Oklahoma. Every other school is linked to the core via a single rivalry: Missouri – Iowa State, Nebraska – Colorado, Kansas – Kansas State, Oklahoma – Oklahoma State.
I suppose we could break out the subdivisions with one core school each….or even the pairing above and throw in a Texas school in each subdivision…then figure scheduling based on a three year rotation as I mentioned before.
MadCat - April 24, 2009
This seems like fun:
1.) If we’re only talking about schools we have a legitimate chance of getting, I’d take Arkansas. The rivalries are there, the location works, the school is pretty good athletically and not bad academically. If we couldn’t get Arkansas, I would want to consider UTEP. While it’s still in Texas, it’s a completely different part of Texas and probably brings a fair number of NM fans to the table. UTEP gets great attendance for a non-BCS school and has a pretty good fanbase in both football and basketball. I would also consider UH, but I would hate that as a UT fan. I’m not sure I really like any of the other choices – TCU/SMU/Memphis/Tulsa/CSU – they all bore me.
2.) I would drop Iowa State because I do not see what they bring to the table. They don’t seem to have that many fans, they aren’t good at any sports that I can think of besides wrestling (and they just lost their coach), and their academics aren’t that good. Baylor is improving in baseball and basketball and is good at women’s bball and men’s tennis. Plus I’m a fan of the one private school thing since it spreads all sorts of crazy rumors about conference requirements.
3.)
East West
OU Texas
Tech A&M
OSU Baylor
Nebraska Colorado
KSU KU
Mizzou ISU
each team would have one team they play every year in the other conference (they are lined up with those teams next to each other). All of the big rivalries are maintained, and I think the conferences are more equal. The East-West breakdown isn’t perfect, but It was the best I could do (for instance, I had to put A&M in the west to match up with Texas, etc.).
Texas Wahoo - April 24, 2009
Not buying the East-West.
-KU and MU is the real rivalry.
-Last time I checked, KSU was further west than KU – but you said that the breakdown isn’t perfect so I’ll give you that one.
-The “East” is a stronger football division at the moment, the West in basketball.
mystman995 - April 25, 2009
Then switch Mizzou and ISU
Gets the KU-MU rivalry back and puts a better football school in the West.
Texas Wahoo - April 27, 2009
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